dance moves people: A Fabric podcast

Fabric's Centre for Advanced Dance Training (CAT) - Alumni Reflections

• Various • Season 1 • Episode 6

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In this episode of dance moves people, we chat with alumni from Fabric's Centre for Advanced Dance Training (CAT). We explore their journeys in dance, reflecting on their experiences in the programme and how it has shaped their careers. Each guest brings a unique perspective, sharing their stories of growth, transformation, and the importance of community in the dance world.

Featuring:

Hosted by Fabric’s Producer of Learning, Dwayne Church-Simms.

For more information about Fabric’s CAT offer, visit https://fabric.dance/centre-for-advanced-training/

For more information on the national dance CAT programme, visit https://nationaldancecats.co.uk 

Visit nottdance Festival 

Visit Fabric Dance 

Music by Tom Harris listeningspace.xyz/

Edited by Steve Woodward at podcastingeditor.com 

Fabric is an Arts Council England, National Portfolio Organisation. 

Becky Bailey, Fabric: Hello, welcome to Dance Moves People, a podcast from Fabric. It's a short series of chats between Fabric artists, friends and collaborators to celebrate the launch of our 10-year strategy. In this episode, we talk to Fabric's Centre for Advanced Dance Training, or as we call it, CAT, alumni who are navigating the next steps in their dance careers. From the experiences that they've had as part of CAT and how they shape their plans to why CAT feels really important to them.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Hi, good morning, everybody. I'm Dwayne Church-Simms and I lead the Nottingham East Midlands CAT Programme for Fabric. With me, I have a team of people who I'm going to be interviewing. Would you all like to introduce yourself, please?

Rickae Hewitt-Martin: Hello, my name is Rickae Hewitt-Martin and I was on the CAT Scheme between 2014 and 2017, I think that was the duration. I am but now a dance movement psychotherapist, an artist based in Derby, and I also run my own dance company, ​Vehdance & Movement.

Natifah White: Hi everyone, I'm Natifah White. I am a Nottingham-based dance artist, also figuring it out as we go. I was on the Dance4CAT between 2014 and 2016, I think. Yeah, so that's me.

Emma Sporton: Hi, I'm Emma. I was on the Dance4 CAT scheme in Nottingham from, oh, I want to say 2017 to 2021-ish. I'm just graduated from uni, so I'm like only just doing career stuff, but yeah, dance artist in Nottingham, teaching assistant at CAT at the moment.

Aishani Ghosh: Hi, I'm Aishani Ghosh. I was on the Birmingham cap outlier here. I was there from 2012 to 2019, I think. I was there for quite a while. I did two strands, so I did the South Asian strand as well as the contemporary one. And I'm currently a dance artist, choreographer, and researcher based in London.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Great, thank you so much. You made me laugh when you said you're still figuring it out Natifah, I think we're all figuring it out now, so I think that's really fair to say. Maybe my first question to you guys is, when you think back on your time on CAT, what probably is the word that stands out and is probably still sitting with you now, even though you finished a few years ago?

Aishani Ghosh: I think joy. I think obviously we all were going through a very confusing time in our lives being teenagers at that time. But I think at least for me, my experience on CAT was, it did push me to be a better person, let alone an artist, but it was just joyous being and making friends that I still have to this day. And we didn't go to the same university and some of us don't dance anymore. So I think with like the hindsight of six, seven years away from CAT, the emotion I'm left with is definitely joy, which is quite special, I think.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Rickae, what about you?

Rickae Hewitt-Martin: For me, it was just completely transformative. I feel like you summed it really nicely. Yeah, I feel like when I first kind of started, I didn't really know what I was getting myself into. My mum was just like, come on, Rakeh, you're going to this audition, like you're gonna do it. So I was like, okay. But yeah, like just getting that experience and that opportunity, yeah, completely changed my life. yeah, really grateful for that experience. And yeah, I'm not quite sure what my trajectory would have been if I didn't have that time on the CAT scheme. So, yeah, that was formative.

Emma Sporton: It just gave so many pathways, just like chances, I suppose, would be the word. Like, I really didn't think dance was a thing I could do for quite a long time, like even as I was doing it just once a week. in company classes or like whatever. It just took CAT taking that seriously and like making me take that seriously to actually like try things, which was really great for me because like, I mean, I just wouldn't have considered like so many things that I've done now, which is really great.

Natifah White: Yeah, I agree with everyone. I plus one on everyone's points. I think I would also say it was quite foundational as well. Like it was a space where, for me, CAT allowed me to also appreciate my other trainings before I got to CAT. And because of my kind of way into the program, it was a very different way in and it was a shock to the system, but a good one. But really foundational in, yeah, like what Emma was saying and definitely building on what you're interested in, what you didn't know you were interested in, putting yourself in new experiences, and yeah just really shaping like what is dance, what could dance be for you, even if it isn't a professional trajectory, and something that really shapes you. So yeah I would definitely say it was foundational.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Amazing, thank you. You touched on some identity, I'm going to unpick a little bit, you spoke about before, so maybe if we could all kind of dig into what was you all doing before you joined the CAP program? You know, what did dance look for you before you did CAP? Was it just kitchen dancing while your summit was in the microwave? Or was it actually you doing tap from like the age of two? Let's get into that. Tell me, Emma.

Emma Sporton: Okay. Um, yeah, so I think I started dance because there was a thing at primary school, like ballet-ish, and it was just like a one-off opportunity. And I liked it basically. I hadn't done anything like physical and creative and it was just something completely new. And then from that, I think I joined whatever Next Door Dance was before it was Next Door Dance. But I was with Hayley Cora for a couple of years, and then I was in the Next Door Dance Youth Company, which is the same building, the same building as where Dance 4 is. So that was pretty much the segue into CAT. I was dancing once a week in the Youth Company. Then people were like, hey, you should try this. You should try this thing that you've never heard of. I did and I really loved it, obviously.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Amazing. And Aishani, what about you? Because you spoke about doing two different strands. So had you had been doing dancing in your other styles, your more traditional styles before you kind of discovered dance exchange in CAT back then?

Aishani Ghosh: Yeah. So I think just culturally, we always do folk dances from childhood, dance dramas culturally, at least in Indian families, it's very common. And I was doing like my weekly, I'm a Bharatanatyam practitioner, so I was doing my weekly Bharatanatyam classes. And at the time, there was what used to be called Yuvagaddhi, and unfortunately it shut down this year due to funding. So I joined the Yuvagaddhi strand first. I think I was like the fourth intake or something. And I was already doing ballet. Weirdly, my mum, migrant mother, was like, oh, I want her to learn a Western style as well, which I'm super grateful for. So I was doing like the little English youth ballets and, you know, like it wasn't, it was a hobby, but like, it was like that slightly bit more serious. Like they kind of fake you into believe you're serious when you're that age. And then when I was 16 or 17, maybe, I think I only did two years of the Contemporary Strand or three years, I just got pushed into doing the Contemporary Strand. They were like, do it, do it, do it. So that's how I did it.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Great. Great. Thank you. What about you, Rickae?

Rickae Hewitt-Martin: So I've been dancing for a young age. I did like ballet, tap and modern and theatre craft at my local dance school.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Natifah, please tell me, what were you doing before?

Natifah White: I definitely think my, my dance flaws were me hiding from my sister actually, because with my sister, she had like her own like hip hop dance crew at the time. And she, and there was that time where like diversity was coming through and it was really cool to have like a really small kid do something and then leave. So I felt like I was recruited in that kind of sense where I would do like 10 seconds of something that I saw on TV and then leave. yeah I think actually my dance floor and my kind of connection to dancing actually were through my sister when I was younger and then there were some like more hip-hop youth-based initiatives in Nottingham that I joined. There was one called New Projects which yeah was my first kind of introduction to like hip-hop beyond the kind of like theatrical or entertainment or competitive kind of spaces. It was more like theatre, freestyle, more I would say authentic to actually what hip-hop is. And then I also was involved with a couple things with Gareth Woodward and Jasmine Eccles. I did like a choreographic program called Exhibit which is actually where I was introduced to CAT. I made a choreography for one of their cohorts and then I think I think it might have been Hayley. I feel like it might have been Hayley. I met Josh, he was another fellow CAT student who was also doing the programme and then he told me about CAT and then I just turned up and hoped for the best. Yeah, it was quite prolific, I would say. But really interesting to see, like, yeah, just and also now just hearing other people's ways in and how it kind of crosses over with local dance. And yeah, it's mainly through others that you kind of find out about it. And then you, yeah, explore it for yourself. And then yeah, so yeah, that would be what I did before.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Brill, thank you so much. What did you all hope to get from the programme? Quite a big question, isn't it? Was the dream to be like West End? Was the dream to be on, you know, Matthew Ball and Swan Lake? You know, what did you hope to get from it?

Aishani Ghosh: For me, I didn't know you could take dance professionally before CAP. It was either like you're a community dance teacher, which is absolutely valid in and of itself, but that was the only version of professional dance I knew you could take. yes, we'd go watch the dance shows, but it just seems so like out of reach. So I didn't have any kind of, I want to do the cat scheme for X, Y, Z reasons. It really was just a way to build a community, a way to push myself more within a hobby for fun, discipline, like community again. Um, but I didn't have in mind, also I started at 11, so I don't think any 11 year old goes in. But yeah, once I got older, it became a lot more about identity formation rather than I want to be the next someone.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Thank you. Emma?

Emma Sporton: I'm trying to think, I'm not, I'm not sure if I, I don't know what I thought I was getting into when I started CAT to be honest. And as I said, like I, I didn't really like take it seriously in terms of like what it would become and what it would lead to for quite a while. I think my last year of CAT was when I first like considered, oh, this could go somewhere. I could keep doing this. This doesn't have to just be for fun and just be me. being super intense about this thing I really like just because I want to. And that's, that's it. I think I also really wanted to do cat because I wanted more time with people who were like-minded and, uh, like surrounding myself by people who like have an intense interest, I guess. And the same thing that I do was very like unique. I didn't have really have that anywhere else.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Rickae?

Rickae Hewitt-Martin: I also agree with what everyone else was basically saying. Yeah, like I said, I didn't really know what I was getting myself into and my mum was just like, you're going to go to this audition and just give it a try. So I just took a word for it and just went. But yeah, I was part of Ace Dance, a music youth company. So a lot of those young dancers were also going into professional training. So that was like a big eye opener for me. And I think some of them were also maybe on the other cast strands. So that was something that, yeah, just opened my eyes further. And I was like, okay, I want to do something that, you know, they're doing and yeah.

Dwayne Church-Simms: right the summit that's just come up really nicely and organically which is this word community and i think it's quite fair to say that actually within the world of dance community almost it's like your second family dance you know your dance family is like your people the people who get it people you share space with and as we know cat for us is something that happens in our building each week and we spend as much time with them on a Saturday as we would do with our classmates, schoolmates and friends. Maybe if you could just share with me how vital that that word community still kind of lives with you now you've finished the programme and you know you ride all the ice just please just maybe in the teeth if you hit it off.

Natifah White: Yeah that's a really interesting I think as I continue developing as a dance artist today, I think there's, I feel like my relationship to the word community really changes, has changed. But I would definitely say there's something about familiarity, like maybe not seeing people for a very long time, but then coming across someone, like anytime I see anyone from CAT, it's always like a nice moment because I feel like there's a shared, even if we're on different years, there's like a shared understanding of like, the exciting, chaotic magic that also happens on any cat kind of programme. And I think there's that kind of shared understanding regardless of when or where, yeah, when you were on that program and also where as well. I think it was really nice when I went to the place to meet other people who I met at the toolkit, for example, and, or a member at an audition or just to talk to someone who also went on a CAP program and the kind of curriculum having some like similarities. So I feel like, that is still, as I think about it now, a really nice thread, actually, that I'm very lucky to be a part of, like, as a wider kind of, yeah, web of cat. alumni, um but also just generally in work today and and ways of working today and like as we figure out what it is that we want to do and what kind of work or ways of working I really think CAT is a really great place to be introduced to different kinds of communities through the practitioners they brought in and also how those practitioners thought about community and how how making choreographically creatively and if it was a technique class like how they were using their practice to think about bringing the idea of community forward and I think yeah, I also feel like through the CAP program, I learned different ways to think about community, as well as my own, my own thinking as well. But yeah, I think for me, it's like an ongoing exploration. But yeah, that's why maybe I also say it would be foundational, like CAP, because it was actually there that I really started thinking more critically about what it is, like what that word actually means. It's not just like something you say. It can change, it can, mean different contexts depending on the day, etc. So that was a long yap about community, but yeah.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Cheers, thank you. Anybody else?

Emma Sporton: Honestly, like it's always been a challenge to like connect with people socially for me and know how to, like how to like make, like take the first steps to like, I don't know, find things in common and stuff. So I feel like CAT was good because you kind of, you can tick a box already. You can be like, okay, we all, we all have this interest in this thing. We're doing it together. It's great. Um, but then, okay, so then you're at, you're at CAT and like, the more you go, it just felt safe. I think that's the, that was the main thing was that it's such a hard thing to find that kind of safety, like in a creative space. Cause you're, you keep revisiting it and you keep seeing these people over and over again. And, um, they're also in the same boat and it's, you're all working on things together and figuring things out together. And it's very obvious. So I think I felt really safe. And then I continued to look for, okay, I've met these people before. And like, as, as I trained, as I went to uni and stuff, oh, these people I've met at this thing. And, um, So some, some people were from CAT and some people weren't, but then yeah, as, as Latifa said, like we're at different CATs and then you'd make those connections because like, oh, we're still in this together in the same way as it was like at the root of it when I first started. It was just, it was very much like, not feeling an alien in all these different spaces, like feeling like very much like, oh, I'm a part of this thing. And I continue to be a part of part of this as, as whatever I do next, even I feel like that will carry on because it's a very interconnected kind of community. I feel like that won't go away, which is really nice.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Beautiful. Thank you. How about you, Aishani?

Aishani Ghosh: It's really interesting. beyond dance and arts there's something about like humans where we like we are in quite an individualistic society and even more we see this craving of community and people discovering what is community and there's this whole thing that community isn't just a really good group of friends, but it's people that you lean on when you're really, really sad, that you'll pick up the call or you have shared experiences of maybe stress and not just the joyous moment of like dark moments. And, and I think there's something about dance that automatically kind of bypasses you from friendship into community, I think. and when you do it at such a young age and in such formative years I feel like whether you want to or not these friendships become community because You're going through, and dance is one of those things, self-confidence issues, self-image issues. You're auditioning for your future together. And at that time it feels like nothing else is more important, even though in hindsight there are. So you're going through so many transformative times in your life. You're like kind of creating your base personality that you're probably going to be. reactive of when you're older with these people in such like beautiful spaces or not beautiful spaces that there's something so beautiful about that you doesn't even feel like friendship. It does feel like camaraderie and community. And sometimes having to name things as community, I think naming and labeling does take away from something. And so it's really nice that in that period to acknowledge that that is what we had. And I'm really lucky to continue to have, like, my closest friends are all actually from the CAT scheme. Yeah, I think there's just, it's really beautiful. And that is what community is, I think, at least for me, not for everyone.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Beautiful, thank you. For you all, you would say there was a particular time where something really shifted, where you knew this is it, I'm really going to continue to forge ahead and really try and make a career in the arts. I want to pursue dance. Was it watching a show? Was it working with a particular artist and thinking, you know, these people are cool. I want to do that. Yeah. What was that shift from it being a Saturday weekly activity to this is my future in some way, shape or form.

Rickae Hewitt-Martin: I think for me, I just slowly started to connect these dots. It's not just, okay, yes, it is my hobby and my interest, but I think I just started to realize I actually can do this. And I feel like the weekly, or is it monthly check-ins that we used to have, and they'd be saying how well you're doing and things to improve on. For me, just hearing the positives, I think for me, it just really, just solidified, like, yeah, like hearing someone else, like seeing what I'm doing and that I'm progressing quite well at this, like hobby, just, yeah, it made me feel like, like, actually, yes, I can, I can do this. So I think that was like a really pinnacle moment for me, just hearing someone saying, like, you can, and we'll be like, we believe in your talent and like what you're doing. So yeah, that was a big thing for me.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Thank you.

Natifah White: I think this is a really interesting question, but I think I knew that I wanted to do it more, or I knew I wanted to dance more professionally actually after the CAP toolkit. I think that's the moment where you're like, OK, it's either just you go for it or you don't, which is also OK. it's super fun but I yeah I think it was after that those three days and visiting um Laban the place in northern and I think as well, as Rikke is saying, there's also something about actually realising it's feasible for me. I think when you see other people do it, you're like, oh, OK, this is great. And I'm so excited for them, or I'm so inspired by other people. But I think once you really think about your own lived experience and like, oh, I actually am seen in this space also, and I can contribute something to this space, I think is really nice to think about at that age of like 17, 18. It's a very pivotal moment. So I would definitely say I think the cat toolkit was for me the moment where I thought, okay, even if I don't go to a conservatoire, I'm definitely going to go to a university. Because I remember I was also in between doing different and applying for different university courses. And I knew dance had to be part of it, if it was a joint honours, if it was a sole dance degree. So yeah, I think that's a really great opportunity for any, for most CAT students to go on at that point in their kind of creative trajectory. Yeah.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Fab. Thank you. Emma?

Emma Sporton: I don't think I knew I wanted to carry on until after I left, after I left CAT. I did a foundation year at Northern and I was still considering like just doing a full like literature degree. And I was very much like that could be just a whole other trajectory and that would be fine with me too. And like, and then dance would remain a hobby. And I wasn't against that at the time. I think, yeah, so I did audition through CAT though and got into the foundation and thought, okay, this is a year, I'll try it. And then I was there and then I was auditioning to do the full degree and I got in, I was like, oh, okay, well, I might as well do that as well. And I did apply for uni again that year, but as soon as I found out, and I think it was also just things happening, as soon as I found out that I was in to the degree at Northern. I didn't care about the university thing anymore. Like I was like, okay, I'm going to just keep putting this off. I can study something else if I ever decide to study something else. So yeah, so I did the BA and, and now I'm doing a master's in creative writing. So that's come back. Um, but yeah, I just kept like thinking, Oh, okay. I'll just, I'll just, Oh, this, this, this can be a real thing for me. And I just, it just kept on. It was, yeah, I don't think I ever, I very much needed things to be handed to me, for me to go, oh, this is, this is actually something I want, which is quite funny, but whatever.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Beautiful, well done for you, for pursuing your careers and your masters for your next chapter. Thanks. Aishani, please.

Aishani Ghosh: I think I have a moment. I think it was a continual am I doing the right thing? Is it crazy? I mean the only brown person I knew was Akram Khan and I'm like well he's already like there and there wasn't really the intermediary that I know a lot of people of colour see so I think I was just like I felt like I was going insane. I was going to do PPE. And my mom, bless her soul, was just like, oh, just apply to dance as well. And like, let the universe choose for you. Then the universe gave me both. And I went, that was stupid decision, mom, wasn't it? Like, I still need to make a decision. And she was like, oh, just do it. just defer a year and then you can, you know, do dance and then, you know, if you hate it, go back to uni. Like, that's fine. Um, and even then I did the year and I was like, Oh, I'm in the right place. I wasn't really feeling accepted. I felt like I'd only done like a year of contemporary before. So it wasn't the greatest of dancing, not like in an attention seeking way, but like genuinely. And And I think even to this day now, I'm like, what am I doing? But I think that's the beauty of it. I like it. For me, this works, having that kind of questioning. I think I was inspired by the dancers around me on CAT and I was like, well, if they can do it and I see that they're struggling and they're that amazing, then, you know, I can try. And then I went to uni and I was surrounded by so many great people. And I was like, oh, well, they look like they don't know what they're doing either. And, you know, we had teachers that also were like, we don't know what we're doing still. And I'm like, okay, well, you make it work with this unknown. And you seem to thrive in the unknown, actually. Some some knew exactly, they were like, I want to go to Verve. And then I want to be a Matthew Bourke. Like, yeah, you have those people. But I don't know, I'm someone I think I thrive off the uncertainty and it pushed me and I think still pushes me. So unfortunately I don't have a moment where I was inspired, but I think that's a bit too much truth, but truth there.

Dwayne Church-Simms: The truth is beautiful, thank you. But you're all kind of circling towards something which is what we're not saying yet. And I want to understand what for us What is the realisation, you know, why are the programmes like CAT so important? And, you know, what has it brought to the surface, you know, for yourselves as young people and, you know, now artists? What have you got from it that you think, you know, you may have not got if you'd not approached or attended a programme like this? There's definitely something there because you're all here with your superpowers, marrying dance with research, literature, psychotherapy, archiving. Like you ain't been born with these tools. They've been nurtured, harnessed. You're figuring it out. Uncertain, as you just said, Ashani, but do you think this is from maybe your time on CAT or has something been revealed from your time on it?

Emma Sporton: I think something that came to mind was that you meet so many different kinds of dance artists when you're on CAP every single week. There are new things happening. It's framed in different ways. You're like doing creative things. You're doing technique things, but oh, it's a different technique or whatever. Like it just kept moving and kept changing. And I think that was really useful. And I think that helped me define what I liked and what I didn't. It's quite simple, like really, but. I guess when you're given so much to work with, at least for me, it was very much like, oh, okay, so this doesn't feel like it's so much for me, but I think this felt so home. This felt like a place that I can really work from. that would happen throughout cat. And then I think, and then, and then I had that like skill to recognize, Oh, I want to try this. I don't want to try this. Um, or maybe I should anyway, you know, because also there were many times when I'd feel uncomfortable, but then I'd still, you know, you gain, you gain stuff from, you gain stuff from trying like styles that aren't, aren't exactly like, something you're going to, you're going to do in the future. But yeah, I think it was just really, it was really fundamentally like figuring out what I wanted and being, it just, it just made me able to, um, and also being able to like practice things like improv was something that really like started off super alien to me, but, um, became something that I just kept returning back to and back to and back to in so many different contexts. And the ways people do it, they're just like, as an example, like really just crazy. So, yeah.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Thank you. Why are programs like this so important? Why is CAT so important? Natifah

Natifah White: I just want to piggyback off of Emma's point because don't know how to formulate it properly yet but there's something about Because we had so many different approaches, ways in, ways out of practice on the program, I think what's interesting now, and as I'm kind of listening and also trying to understand that question is, I'm curious what's still shaping what I'm, how I think right now. And there's something about the ideas that we got on the program. Some of them have quicker outputs, some of them a bit more clearer in terms of like, okay, working on this kind of polyrhythm actually has helped me in ballet and it's very clear and it's very like direct in terms of like where it's where it's gone but there's also some other ways even if it's you know a small thing that an artist said in my first year of cat or a passing experience I had during the cat toolkit like how is that shaping how I'm thinking now and I think there's something quite nice scary, interesting, there's something about legacy as well like what is still shaping me from my cap years and not necessarily knowing that and not being able to put that all in words but knowing that it does and it has and it still will do that and I think that's where I'm at in relation to yeah why the CAP program is so important because I think it's we say a lot it's about transferable skills but it's also like transferring where and also a lot of them are still in progress and and I really am so grateful for CAP because I really I really wouldn't have come across some really like wacky explored like some real like wow these are some experiences that I definitely would not have had if it wasn't the CAP program. Some that yeah I might not like or might not necessarily choose to do again but that doesn't necessarily mean they haven't shaped what I like and I think that's also feedback it's like okay now I know or have an idea of what things I'm interested in and maybe not and still having those as valuables so yeah that would be that would be my response.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Thank you, anybody else?

Rickae Hewitt-Martin: Yeah just having that opportunity to like discover and explore I think that's just a huge thing for me because it's such a like unique experience and an intensive one as well. So like Lateef was saying, having different artists kind of like coming in, you kind of can connect to some and some of the ones you may not connect as much, but that's okay. And it's just part of the experience. So yeah, just having that opportunity to also be with like-minded people and explore and discover, I think are the biggest things for me.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Great, thank you. Aishani?

Aishani Ghosh: Yeah, echoing what everyone's saying about the emotional aspect and creativity inspiration aspect. So I won't say the same things. But one thing for me, I think just like a practical thing was, you know, getting used to a full day of dance. Like we don't really do that. I think it was a really good transition into what uni and actually what professional life often is like, because I never really did devising task works before CAT, I never really experienced people outside of my own style and what it would be like to be inspired by movement or, you know, what is improvisation? That is a skill in and of itself. So I think CAT does allow you to start discovering professional skills in a very safe and unprofessional kind of setting where you don't feel like the pressure, which I think carried me through university and still today.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Amazing. Thank you. I am just absorbing all of this brilliance right now. Some of you are forging out solely dance careers, some of you are things you're forging out and marrying two different things. And there's no right or wrong. And I know Ashani said earlier on, you're doing research, you've got your contemporary, you've got your barinatium, all of those things married together. And for yourself, Rike, you spoke about your psychotherapy and your dance. How has dance and those other interests like found themselves in what you're doing now? Why is it important? because you're doing you're all doing so many different things now but it stemmed from either your interest in dance and through doing cat you found these other interests that either you wanted to fuse together to where you are now or you just didn't see the need to let the other thing your other interests go. You know Emma you said you started at Northern but you also still had this interest for literature you thought let's give it a year let's see if I'm you know if it's still sitting with me you were offered the degree you were like oh my gosh let's just drive this I'm doing it and here you are now still finding yourself attached to literature and you're still forging a career in the arts and dancing and you're working back at CAP. Likewise for yourself Rike, psychotherapy and care is so important to your practice and those things go hand in hand and you've got your dance company as well that you've kind of forged over these last couple of years and something you can't deny, do you know what I mean? And Natifah, yeah archiving I mean that's that word is so like you're redefining what archiving means and how it sits with dance. That is a passion of yours through and through. So these things are like, that's why I said earlier on, they're your superpowers and they're forging your careers as you move forward. But why? How? You know the answers.

Rickae Hewitt-Martin: I think for me, I've just realized that we are all very multifaceted. And I think for a long time, I just thought dance, company, dance, company, dance, company, dance, company. But no, I've still got so many other skill sets, which kind of like spring from my like love of dance. So like health and wellbeing. So for me, it's just, taking hold of like, like giving permission to myself to still access the different parts of my interests and who I am, but it all kind of like comes into like one circle. It's all interconnected. Yeah. I think that's the thing for me. Like, yes, I'm this, but I'm still many different parts of something else, but it all still kind of links. So that's it for me.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Beautiful. Thank you.

Aishani Ghosh: it was a really beautiful way to put it okay. I think also beyond dance we kind of lose our identity in being a dancer and it becomes your personality and then that can lead to all sorts of things. So for me I think it's just about remembering that wild dance is and always will be my biggest love and passion. It is not the entirety of me. So just finding things that supplement dance and keep the passion alive. Because taking a passion for a career isn't easy. So finding ways to navigate that. So like, you know, creative producing or choreographing, researching. I think there are ways subconsciously maybe or unconsciously that you know, keep the passion alive and motivate us and inspire us more in dance or I don't think I particularly create within dance, I create in multimedia and I think that's interesting. We're in an age of intertwining and intersectionality as well. So yeah, it's about whatever fills your cup and whatever inspires you and whatever makes you happy. I think that's the biggest thing, happy, peace and love. So yeah.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Emma?

Emma Sporton: So, uh, I think I just have this massive need to do all the things that I want to do when I want to do them and be able to switch between like so many different interests. Yeah, I think about filling your cup. I think I just, I wouldn't feel like I'm fully achieving being me if I wasn't continuously thinking, oh, okay, but how would this fit into this? Or is it possible for me to try, yeah, try writing with But then I was thinking about, I even did essays at uni that were intertwining them and then thinking of the context they'd fit in. And it was just like, you don't think about what is possible until you're like, okay, these are the things that interest me. now what? And then you're asking that question and then you find yourself in places that you wouldn't find yourself otherwise. And I think that's so valuable. It wouldn't even cross your mind to think of and try the things that you end up trying unless you keep the things that you love and enjoy in your life. You just can't let them go completely anyway, obviously. take time away, like that's also super healthy. But yeah, I'm hoping as well, like in terms of my career, I'm just hoping that I can continue to just keep an eye out for anything that catches my eye. And like, I don't imagine a life where those things don't end up, even if it's something completely new, I've never tried before, that those things don't end up part of my practice or part of like how I want to continue living my life. Like from that point, you know, I just think things should inherently connect with each other and especially in a creative industry, those things want to connect and we are able to do that, which is so cool. It's like really cool.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Yeah.

Emma Sporton: That keeps it alive for me.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Amazing. I mean, that was a TED talk in itself. Thank you. Natifah, over to you.

Natifah White: Yeah, I don't know how to follow that one. No it was great um I guess yeah maybe just to again plus one and what's already been said I think when it comes to like my practice in dance archiving there's something about access which has always been something like a thread I've always tried to like explore and unpack and I think CAP is a great example of access, not just to the program but also like to different ways of working, different approaches, different people, your classmates, teachers. visiting artists, theatre trips, like in terms of yeah I think there's something like an underlining layer about access to these things because again if you don't know they exist how do you work with something that you don't know exists or how how do you not know if there's a possibility to extend something or expand something if you don't have a reference And I think, not to say you need a reference always to expand something, but I think it's nice to know that there's something already happening in your trajectory or like in your surroundings that you can use or be inspired by. So I think in relation to how CAT has really shaped my thinking around access, I think there's something, and dance archiving, which for me is an area that I'm still figuring out. It's very speculative. It's very impossible sometimes, but I think without having an experience like CAT that could just give, well, that gave me the courage and the confidence to try something new for me and to fail, I think is also really important. We don't often think about that in relation to just practice, but yeah, failing. failing forward, failing upwards, failing whatever direction you feel, I think CAT has actually helped me think actually that's also practice, that's also feedback as I said before, that's information that you can keep working with so Yeah, I've gone off on one, but there is definitely, yeah, I think CAT has really helped me think about my practice and like where it can go, where it, and also to change my mind is also very okay. So I think, yeah, just possibilities as well. I think it creates a lot of possibility.

Dwayne Church-Simms: Thank you and thank you to everyone for being so candid and sharing and being so honest and open. It was great to kind of dig into all of these kind of questions and chew the fat with you all this morning and just hearing all of you talk so honestly and openly really just highlights why this program, CAT, for me is really important and I love my job doing this. So thank you so much for doing this.

All: Thank you. Thank you.

Becky Bailey, Fabric: Thanks for listening. Please do like and subscribe to help us reach more people and do check out our other episodes found on your usual podcast platform.