nottdance: four curators in conversation - part 2

In the second part of this conversation, past and current nottdance curators Bill Gee, Jane Greenfield, Nicky Napier and Paul Russ talk with De Montfort PhD student and Organisational Archive Researcher Andi Johnson about the innovative programming and curatorial processes that have shaped the festival over the years.

nottdance is a festival of extraordinary dance, presenting choreographic ideas and works from across the city of Nottingham and around the world, asking "What can dance be?"

The festival has always embraced experimentation, inviting radical perspectives and listening to artists working in ways that don’t fit the traditional, choreographic mould. 

In the 2025 edition, nottdance asks: How do we each perceive time? What does it feel like to belong? And whose stories are being told? Inhabiting the city’s theatres, galleries, shopping centres and outdoor spaces, the works reflect and celebrate our city and the world in which we live, with and for our communities near and far.

Visit nottdance Festival 

Andi Johnson (They/Them) is the Organisational Archive Researcher for Fabric. Alongside this, Andi is a PhD student at De Montfort University in Leicester.

Bill Gee (He/Him) works as a programmer, festival director, project producer, strategist, and researcher specialising in arts in the public space. He’s been doing something similar for the past 38 years since starting his professional life in the East Midlands at the end of the 1980s. Bill currently works with Activate; 101 Outdoor Arts; Bloomsbury Festival; Nature Calling; Jyll Bradley; R&D Studios, and as Access Support worker for Julian Rudd. 

Jane Greenfield (She/Her) has had an extensive arts career spanning over 30 years. Beginning in the mid-80s as Dance Animateur in Norfolk and Derbyshire, she went on to work at Nottingham Playhouse and Nottinghamshire Next Stage. In 1994 she became Director of Dance 4 and two years later, the Director of nottdance. From Dance4, Jane broadened her curatorial practice and worked across the live/performance and visual art sectors, including for Home Live Art and the National Trust's Trust New Art programme. Currently she works as Creative Producer for Culture Creative, an international arts & events company working in the realms of large-scale outdoor events and Winter light trails.

Nicky Napier (She/Her) has over thirty years of experience in the dance and performance sector and works in a freelance capacity as a curator, executive producer and dramaturg. She is currently interim Director at Independent Dance and was previously Head of Dance and Performance at the Southbank Centre, programming dance and performance across the entire site.  Nicky trained at Trinity Laban, has an MA Dramaturgy from Birkbeck and an MA Popular Culture from the Open University, and was Artistic Director at Dance4 and the nottdance Festival from 2004-2008. She is currently Chair of Ben Duke’s Lost Dog and will shortly become Co-Chair of Chishenhale Dance Space.

Paul Russ (He/Him) is Artistic Director and CEO of FABRIC, the dance development organisation based in the Midlands, UK. Paul was Chair of Nottingham 2023, the City’s European Capital of Culture bid and Chair of Nottingham Strategic Cultural Partnership. Paul has held many non-Executive roles in third sector organisations and has participated in international advisory panels and forums.

Visit nottdance Festival 

Visit Fabric Dance 

Music by Tom Harris listeningspace.xyz/

Edited by Steve Woodward at podcastingeditor.com 

Fabric is an Arts Council England, National Portfolio Organisation. 

Transcript

Becky Bailey, Fabric: Hello. Welcome to Dance Moves People, a podcast from Fabric. It's a short series of chats between Fabric artists, friends and collaborators to celebrate the launch of our ten year strategy. 

In this, the second of two episodes, organisational archive researcher and De Montfort PhD student Andi Johnson talks to our former and current festival curators, Bill Gee, Jane Greenfield, Nicky Napier and Paul Russ. They talk more about the considerations they made and make when programming work, and what Nottingham as a place means to the festival. If you haven't heard part one, do check it out. 

Andi Johnson: So I want to shift us a little bit into talking about the programming and curatorial processes of the festival itself. I know that in some of our conversation already, we've talked about really centering on being able to engage with artists within their research processes, bringing in experimental forms of dance and life performance that has been influenced or informed by dance. And really bringing in people who haven't had the chance to be programmed within other sorts of dance spaces and making sure that there's platforms for innovative thought. But I really want to dig a bit deeper into these curatorial processes and programming and explore how the festival over the years has maybe done some innovative or disruptive movements within the scene to be able to develop new engagements of performance and really accept things that maybe weren't previously accepted within the landscape of dance and performance. 

Paul Russ: Not a small question then.

Andi Johnson: No, not at all. Straight in.

Paul Russ: Straight in. Well, maybe as a starter for 10, I think that one of the things, maybe I touched on it before, in response to who's out there in the world now as a consequence of developing skills and opportunities that were about Nottingham and the festival and dance floor. But I do think the voices of the many are really pepper through. When you look at the festival over the 30 odd years now, you can see that many people have informed. what arrives in the programme. So that's about our partners, it's about members of our team, it's acknowledging that there are different voices, different perspectives and lived experiences that do shape ultimately what then is coalesced into the programme and what that ends up being. And I do think there's thoughts about the place, so who, what, where, why is Nottingham, what are we busy with as a city, as a neighbourhood at any one time? What is our host venue potentially also like busy with and what their audience is interested in? And then also again referencing that so many things are in research and in process for such a long time that there are ideas that are coming from artists that you know are going to feature in two years time because they've just scratched this great thing and you know you're going to be able to commit to something in a couple of years. And so you take that with you. and put it in at that moment. So there's so many kind of routes to how you end up with a programme, I suppose.

Nicky Napier: Yeah, and I think for me, and I think maybe for all of us, the joy of programming a festival as opposed to programming a venue provides a different mindset and opportunity. in terms of processes and the sort of layering of things, you know, context.

Jane Greenfield: I was going to say that, I mean, we talked a lot right at the beginning about, you know, working with our, you know, in the 90s, working with the kind of our peers, our collaborators, like the Now Festival and so on. So it's very much a sort of, in a way, a kind of shared vision for Nottingham, even though we were running our own organisations, there was a sort of shared vision. And I think certainly in the early days, for me, programming choices were part of that shared vision because it was so collaborative. You know, Andrew Chetty and I worked very closely together and had conversations together about, you know, work we found interesting, artists that we liked. And so often the fact that you were sort of sharing that interest with somebody else quite possibly led to it being programmed. I think also probably the programming choices that we made in the early days of Nottdance were again influenced by that particular kind of culture within the city at that time, in the way that Bill described, that it would have been bizarre, you know, as a young director, young programmer, it would have been bizarre for me to program something that was completely at odds with what was happening in the NOW Festival, what was happening at Nottingham Trent University, what was happening within the Council's touring work. You know, why would I have done that? I might have done it to be disruptive, but the kind of cultural agenda that was happening in Nottingham, as Bill described it, it was about trying to kind of respond to that and fulfil that and grow that. and I also I mean I remember distinctly some of my choices being made and I remember this around Jerome Bell when he hadn't been to the UK before I learned about his work and I and I remember seeing it and I his work was recommended to me by Mulweather or from Reckless Sleepers and from Javier de Frutos. And they had both been to the same festival abroad. I can't remember where it was. It'll have been somewhere in Ghent or somewhere like that. They were both performing at the same festival. And independently, they both came back and said to me, I've just been to this festival. You should book this young artist called Jerome Bell. His work is perfect for nottdance. I remember independently them both saying that. And actually, at that point, we had no money for me to go abroad to see festivals, so I often relied on those artists that were going to festivals. So anyway, I just distinctly remember both of them saying, you will like this work, this work is perfect for the festival. And so I remember then eventually seeing it and thinking, why is nobody programming this work in this country? Why is this madness? To me it was interesting work, it was good work, and we can unpack the thing of like, well it's great work, I love it, I'm programming it. But for me it was like a kind of lightbulb moment, and I thought, well if nobody else is programming this work, And this work deserves to be seen. It is our job to program it. And that was a sort of rationale for me. It's like, well, if no one else is doing it, we're going to do it because it needs to be seen. And that was the basis for a lot of kind of programming choices early on was about there is no other home for this work. So we make the home. And I inherited your small travel budget, Jane.

Nicky Napier: which then Paul inherited as well and I have reflected on that since in terms of how I tried to extend that travel budget because obviously one didn't want the work to be just within a sort of small frame but a lot of the time you were relying on other people to tell you, but also potentially other organisations that would pay for you to go somewhere. And I'm thinking about the relationship, Simon Dove, we've not mentioned him in terms of Springdance in Utrecht. And so Nottingham and Utrecht had a really strong relationship. You had a really good partnership going for several years.

Andi Johnson: Bill, you were in the younger days of the festival, and really before international work really started coming into the festival, I believe.

Bill Gee: Yeah, and I've just, just listening to this, I've also been scanning through a couple of the brochures, which obviously are a very good aid memoir, and It's that normal thing, actually. Looking at the festival, there's many of the normal things where you can see, well, actually, there was a regional dance platform. And I remember that regional dance platform was something which we co-curated with Phoenix. So I think those artists were from the wider East Midlands and they were here in Nottingham and they were in Leicester. That's sort of pretty normal thing to do. And just looking at this, I remember that there were a series of local commissions that we put commission calls out, you know, not for very much, but I think they were sort of like, there was like one for £5,000 a year and a couple for £2,000 a year. just seeing Locke Smith, you know, I know that we supported them for a couple of years. So that was a local commission and they were artists that had just very recently, like literally I think the previous year, had come out of the creative arts course that Paul was probably just starting or was maybe in his first year of doing it. And, you know, it's interesting that both those artists Sharon Smith, you know, is one of the core members of Gob Squad now. And Caroline Locke is an academic artist that still works in the East Midlands. It's interesting, you know, that they're that. And then I also see Bodies in Flight. And, you know, Bodies in Flight was, you know, Sarah Giddens was a key person who, you know, we lost last year. But, you know, Sarah, obviously, as her company was programmed, but in terms of that involvement of making sure that the dance students within the creative arts degree were engaged, you know, she was a key person in those early days for that. So there are lots of these sort of small reasons, but then I look at some of the sort of national things that are programmed there. But things like working with Emmeline Clayed, working with Nigel Charnock, I mean, I'm so pleased that those artists specifically came in to the Nottdance programme, because I think, again, they are such... amazing nottdance artists, you know, and obviously Nigel's no longer with us, but Professor Emmeline Clayed is still making nottdance work, I would say. It is great to see that. And then, you know, I did go to London. Of course I went to London and there was a platform event that had been created at the Southbank Centre. The programming of it, or the curation of it, was split between Finn Walker and Emma, Emma Gladstone. And I can't remember the name of the platform, but it was sort of like pieces that were up to 15 minutes long, that they did some of them in the theatre, some of them were elsewhere. And some of that, and I think that work I think that's probably where I saw Im Lata do something for the first time. The festival made an early connection with Im Lata Dance, which I was very pleased about, and they came to Nottingham a few times in those first years. You know, I still do festivals. I don't particularly do dance festivals, but all of those reasons are reasons why you program things within the festival as well. You know, as well as this thing of saying, what is nottdance? You know, what is dance? There are other reasons. Of course, there are other reasons why you're presenting some artists.

Jane Greenfield: Sorry, Paul, I was just going to say, I think also we shouldn't forget the training institutions that some of us, or certainly people of my generation, were still able to go to when universities and polytechnics had courses in contemporary dance and live art or performance art or theatre making. As a student I went to Leicester Poly, as it was then, because they did a performing arts degree. Gavin Bryers was the music lecturer and, you know, we had a dance degree course that changed radically in the first year. because Mike Huxley became the head of dance and suddenly all our tutors were people like Emmalyn Clayed and, you know, the X6 collective people. So I was trained as a 19-year-old to go see the work of people like Katie Duck or Emmalyn Clayed or go to Riverside to see Anna Furze or Laurie Booth. They were all my lecturers. So I came out of that as a 21-year-old That was my basis. That was my training. And then of course, you know, Middlesex University had a burgeoning performance art course at the same time and then, name escapes me, that's really bad, that where Bush Hartshorn trained over in... Crewe Northsager. No, not Crewe Northsager. Dartington. Dartington, Dartington and the people that came out of Dartington like Bush who kind of was clearly shaped by the training he had there.

Bill Gee: Lone Twin.

Jane Greenfield: Lone Twin. So it goes back to your, to some extent it goes back, not always, but it, you know, you can take it back to your own training. I guess that's what I'm, that's what I'm saying.

Paul Russ: I mean, I feel so clear about that in a way, just, just even hearing Sarah's name.

Jane Greenfield: Yeah.

Paul Russ: It's so important that what Sara did in every session was invite a perspective that, you know, she was really clear to me in she would always bring the other voices and artists into the conversation. It was very rarely about her practice. And, you know, the extraordinary artists that would come into sessions because they were part of Knock Dance or they were in residence at Dancefloor. So, at a really early stage, what I was used to as in a dance training was, you know, copying who was in front of me. At the age of 18, that shifted immediately because of the context that Nottingham Trent created and its partners with Dancefor and many others and the artists that introduced. So I think maybe there's a principle there, isn't there, about always being aware of what others are bringing and listening to what they're curious about. And one of the reasons why this conversation feels so vital at this point for us is as an organisation is ultimately because as we became Fabric, we didn't want to forget what might have happened before and ultimately what those very early reasons were for why the festival now exists.

Nicky Napier: I mean, one of the things that I've been thinking about as we speak is that we were bringing international artists here. We're talking about some of these wonderful UK or national artists as well. I remember one of the things that I used to feel frustrated with was that where are UK artists going overseas? And I remember now thinking about that in the context of how they were being valued by my international peers. and therefore what we could do at Nottdance to put things next to each other. And we talk about, you know, the sort of presumably the support that people like Jerome Bell got through the French system. But what was happening here? How were our artists being supported? And I'll always remember conversations with the amazing Rosemary Butcher and how, you know, I don't feel that she's ever fully been recognised in this country for the incredible artist that she was. And a lot of her support was in Germany with Walter Hoyne at Joint Adventures. And I feel it with all of us that actually there's been a responsibility to Yes, through Dance 4 and through Fabric, and through the work that you're doing now, Paul, with different programmes that you do up in Edinburgh, etc. You know, you are really supporting the UK scene. But certainly during my time, there was a real... I was really frustrated. I'd look back at some of the brochures and I sort of wrote letters. I don't know who it was I was writing to, but I wrote my thoughts. in the sort of introduction to sort of get out some of my frustration about how we weren't valuing what we had, we weren't valuing this radical discourse that was happening and that we were always as a dance sector we were leaning towards the mainstream and how there were allies as we've talked about within the sort of live art or interdisciplinary sort of communities but actually We just needed to shout more loudly. It was really frustrating. And so people like Rosemary and others, they should have been recognized so much more, you know, in the way that Jerome Bell became famous. You know, why didn't Rosemary and others? And, you know, I was looking, I was having a giggle on the train here, looking at an interview that we did with Nigel Charnock, the incredible Nigel Charnock. And the interview was he had a few weeks here in residence and he was making Stupid Men. And I remember that we presented it, you know, in the following Nottdance Festival at the Boning Powerhouse. Where was it presented? But anyway, and people walked out, but it was just, just the energy of allowing somebody like Nigel to have a home where he could actually just do his thing. And, you know, he's referenced by many of the artists that are working today as, as are other people that we've been talking about. So, yeah.

Jane Greenfield: It's interesting, that notion of responsibility, isn't it? In some ways, feeling a responsibility to those artists, like Rosemary Butcher, and that being the part... I mean, you supported them because you thought their work... We thought their work was amazing, and it should therefore be supported. But you're right, there was a sense of responsibility around supporting those artists, because no-one else was. It's like, well, if we don't do it, who's going to do it? And that's what I mean about the Jerome Bell moment. It's like, if no one else in the UK is going to program this, then who's going to program this then? Okay, it's us then. Right.

Nicky Napier: You mentioned earlier about the sort of context of festival as well, sort of separate from the programming of a venue. I remember certainly during my first year here and was really thinking about audience as well. And Anna Mansell, Anna O'Steele now, who worked with us at that time, the conversations we had about how to translate the work of Nottdance to our audiences and how that conversation and that dialogue between the programming between the audiences, between the dance community, between the live art community, between how all those layers of things informed the process of what we should program and how. And decisions about, during my time we moved the festival to a different time of year, we looked at condensing it slightly, we looked at adding layers in of morning class for professional artists that were based in the area. I'm sure during other festivals as well, but the conversations, symposiums, dialogues, collaborations with the Broadway cinema, with film. So other sort of layers that you can put in into a sort of festival context, which allow you that we're talking here about sort of how we curate something. But the joy of being able to do that within a festival context in Nottingham, which had built this incredible reputation was exciting, actually.

Andi Johnson: So maybe this is a good moment, then. to talk a little bit more about Nottingham itself and the ways that Nottingham has been able to provide support to the festival, has shaped the festival, maybe even has not been able to provide support to the festival as time has gone on. Yeah, and how the city of Nottingham itself has really been shaping the festival. And we've already had some talk around audiences and whose audiences are for kind of coming into the festival in a bit. But maybe we can expand upon that and how the festival itself has really fit in to the artistic climate of the city, particularly alongside not just the partners of the festivals, but the people who are present within the city as well.

Jane Greenfield: It's been such a long time since I lived here, I don't feel qualified anymore because I don't know, you know, kind of the landscape, the cultural landscape of Nottingham now and how difficult or not it is for Dancefloor to be part of that. I think, you know, without repeating ourselves too much, you know, the landscape when I started, when Bill started here, was very different. And Nottingham was seen as this creative city, but a place to come, I think, a place to come because exciting stuff was going on. So it was attracting people, whether it was, you know, people working in film or within dance or within live art, or maybe not as seen as exciting as Manchester, but there was certainly a kind of edge to it that people were attracted to at that time. And I don't know, I mean, I'm looking at Paul and to some extent Nikki because, you know, they've been through a different time here in Nottingham culturally when things have kind of shifted and become harder to some extent in terms of resourcing and supporting.

Nicky Napier: I mean, I could certainly talk about some of the curatorial decisions that were made that maybe that led on to some of the work that you did, Paul. And actually the sort of decisions about where to put work came out of what you did, Jane, and what you were doing, Bill. I remember that my first festival, we had a piece of work that was called Future by an artist called Vili Dorna, and it was based in Snenton Market. And it was a collaboration with Nottingham Trent and Mixed Reality Lab, I think they were called. And that work came out of a response to the regeneration that was happening. So it's pre this building that we're in now in Dalkean Street. when we were based down near Snenton Market and for that first festival there was a number of things that we were placing out in the city as well that was very much responding both from an audience point of view in terms of like making sure the audience could interact more directly with the festival so we had the amazing Adrian Howells. had his salon, Adrienne, in a hairdresser's down very close to where the original office, which was called Preset, was. We had films at the Broadway. We also had a piece from a Brazilian artist, which was about people walking around the East Side. Blast Theory were doing their thing. Gob Squad did their thing. We also had Maria Larabont in that first year as well, who did a piece called Forte Espontaneus. working with 40 people, over 40. And that was a community project, but within the context of Laura Bott's work. And that continued as a sort of theme over those years, which was pre the capital campaign. The following year, we had a project called Open City, which was with Katie Doubleday, Andrew Brown, Simone Kenyon. We had stuff at Woolerton Hall. And then another year later, we looked at audiences as curators of the festival too, obviously within a context of offering them a menu of things to choose from. And then we had a project which was called... I remember Wendy Houston in a shop, which I think was probably your festival, Jane. I remember looking after Wendy Houston in a deserted shop. And then we had a piece called Store, which was from Japanese artists. And I know that that work continues with you, Paul, in terms of like placing things in the city and responding to and working with the city and working with partners.

Paul Russ: It makes me think of community dance and how often it speaks to a little bit, I think, of the perception of Dance4 that we as an organisation didn't do it. We didn't do community dance. And I think one of the things that the organisation has always done and continues to do is brilliant community dance by inviting artists and members of the public in whatever guys they live in and community they live in and lived experience they come from, to be in conversation together about what dance can be. And some of those things have just been beautiful. So I remember coming in my first year, Street Dance by Lone Twin. And it was this glorious thing where I knew that that emerged from dialogues that you were having, Nikki, but also Jane, you were working with the company at the time. There's this gift of this project right in year one that really revealed to me what is possible when you invite members of the public to have these extraordinary conversations. And that has quite literally lasted as a principle in every iteration, how do you invite someone who will never have maybe experienced this conversation and this practice before to be present with this thing called dance or this organization called Dance For Now Fabric and in this festival. And yeah, I think that often we've not been clearer that some of those practices have been really important in shaping the work.

Bill Gee: It's lovely that you mentioned that because I also, so actually I think we have found a piece of work that we all absolutely connect on there because I remember coming to see that work and being incredibly struck by it. And it's very interesting just sitting here because actually it's just essentially that community is just over the hill from here. So it was very prescient that that was the place that was decided or however that decision was made to work in that place was made.

Jane Greenfield: But yeah, that was... And what was interesting about that project was I can't quite remember whether we had an option to kind of look at different, look at locating it in different places around Nottingham. And, you know, at that time, Snenton, you know, was considered a tough place to do anything, but for all sorts of reasons. And so we were taking a risk by putting it there that no one would be interested, that there'd be a lot of hostility, all these kinds of preconceptions. And that our lives could have been easier if we'd have done it in Mapley, somewhere like that. Because you'd have been amongst middle class people who would think it would be a lovely idea. And of course it was amazing. part of it being amazing was because of its location and those people in it who had never ever experienced anything like that, I mean let alone come to the Nottdance Festival or met somebody like Lone Twin and it was astounding. So I think you're right, I think that's a fantastic example of Dance 4's way of doing what was then probably called community outreach or audience development, community outreach project or something like that, that's Dance 4's way of doing it. It probably didn't align with a lot of other community dance or community arts projects, but it felt very much like that was the way that we would do it, I think. It sat very comfortably within our way of presenting what dance could be.

Paul Russ: Sure, I think there's something about what it reveals about lives and places. you know, there's an ongoing tension, I think, between, so going into a community, engaging with people on a great one-off project, you know, there's a kind of concern, I suppose, that exists in all of kind of our work in dance, maybe in broader arts about you go in once and then you leave and then what's left. And I think I take comfort, I suppose, in those moments something has beautifully changed. Now you don't know what those things are necessarily, but to hear anecdotes 15 years later that that person still dances, or that person still remembers going down that road and watching something that was, you know, a hundred people were standing outside their house, watching their neighbours dance together, So something's possible about that place and with those people and that for me feels worthwhile. Like there is real value in that. We didn't have to then build a dance house at the top of the road and give everyone free dance classes every week, you know. Something still has changed and is impactful for that place and those people.

Bill Gee: I just wonder something else that obviously did happen in Nottingham in terms of the cultural infrastructure was as it, you know, there was a big thing across the country, but there was a big push in the East Midlands because there was a thing called the RDA and the Arts Council had capital funds and was working very strongly with the RDA and there was a very good relationship between those agencies. So there was a real push to capital. So, you know, something like, having Nottingham Contemporary and, say, the space that we were in last night for the extraordinary performance last night. I don't think that would have existed also without Nottdance, Now Festival, Bonnington Gallery, Powerhouse, all of that, but it then becomes solidified into a major cultural organisation. And you've got New Art Exchange. And obviously we're now sitting in this, which is... which is wonderful, but it's not of that, you know, it's somewhere in the middle in terms of scale. But I think that did perhaps solidify things a bit more than they were before. Actually having that built cultural infrastructure then sort of means that you have to also work with it.

Nicky Napier: I remember Anna and I going and meeting with Alex who became the director of Nottingham Contemporary before it was built and actually talking to him about the importance of the performance space and what we would hope to do with it and how, you know, what our thoughts were about what the international community could do with that space and the national community. But I'd love to know more about what happened with the capital campaign and as we're talking about what changed in Nottingham from the moment that it was you who was holding things.

Paul Russ: Well, I think what certainly was interesting at that period of time was, I think there was an honest dialogue about why Nottingham Contemporary came about. I think it was understood that that was only being made possible because of what had happened in the 80s and 90s in this city. And when some of the originating component parts of what that project was going to be, so I'm just thinking about, I forget what his name was, Future Factory.

Jane Greenfield: Future Factory, I was just thinking about that.

Paul Russ: And so his very emphasis was about coalescing lots and lots of different forms of practice, really embracing the interdisciplinary into the vision of that new institution. Well, I suppose that that, in a way, for whatever reason, didn't materialise. And what it became was a contemporary art facility.

Bill Gee: That happened in Manchester because, I mean, Aviva Studios is called now, but Aviva Studios is the factory. So I've never thought that, I've never remembered that future factory, but actually what MIF, Manchester International Festival, have created with the factory is what the vision was for a very flexible, huge space.

Jane Greenfield: The ambition, the idea was that Future Factory would be the big kind of, would be this space, this physical entity, and organisations like Dance4 would sort of have its home there, you know. And it was very exciting as a concept, but yeah, it ultimately didn't go that way.

Paul Russ: It didn't go that way, but what that did do is it created something else that was possible for an organization like Dance4 at that time, because what we could say is, well, it's not going to serve the purpose. It's not going to create the workspaces that we actually do really need and should deserve. And God loved the spaces that Dance4 occupied in the city and made work, because they actually are the spaces that inform the spaces we're now in. The space that we're recording this in is dual aspect. It's not the hugest of space, but it really reminds me of the kind of principle of preset. The office is just outside and this building is on one level and it's all about the ability to feel like we're collectively working towards a single endeavor. So I suppose at that time, the prospect of Dancefloor having its own spaces that created a more permanent home for the art form and its work became possible. And actually, at that time, there's a kind of really interesting fine line to walk. And we had to spend a lot of time talking a lot more about the communities that we're working with, rather than the artists that we're working with.

Bill Gee: Yeah, the conversation had to flip, really.

Paul Russ: Really shifted. And also a principle about remaining committed to not creating another theatre. So saying, actually, the cultural infrastructure of the city is really rich and brilliant. Let's not go into competition with ourselves. Let's continue to work with the principle that we're in everyone else's spaces and dance can be this kind of like might disrupt you in those spaces, and brilliantly so. So we just need workspaces and places to convene. We don't need presentation spaces. And also, I suppose, being really mindful that not even contemporary is emerging. New art exchange is emerging. We should be more on the stages of the city and lakeside as well. Shona Powell and the kind of great leadership there, and how she's really embraced quite an extraordinary range of work and embrace the relationship with Danceform Fabric. We should be in those spaces, let's continue to be in those spaces. And I'm pleased to say that through all of the politics, the city feels like it's still incredibly creative, like the artists that emerge and practice in the city are brilliant. many more than I will ever know, I think, because of how many spaces there are.

Jane Greenfield: That's great to hear that, because I didn't know that. You know, I suppose that was one of my questions was, do you still feel that about Nottingham and that there is this groundswell of artists still, whether it's working within digital media or dance or performance or whatever?

Paul Russ: I mean, there's still an incredible visual art scene here. And I use visual arts in a really expanded way.

Jane Greenfield: Yes.

Bill Gee: Yeah.

Paul Russ: that the artists studios like Backlit, Primary and others that exist now really come out of the training institutions in the city and really help frame some extraordinary practices and communities. So it's all really still possible. It's just really difficult. The difficult thing is money and there's no political will to make culture happen. No acknowledgement that culture actually is the kind of reason why this city hasn't fallen over even worse than it currently finds itself. Without culture in the city, night time and economy would disappear. There's just some really important reasons why the city still continues and that is largely about the artists that make shit happen. But yeah, money is just, there's none of it in the city. You have to make it from the broader relationships that happen across region and across the UK and overseas. which unfortunately isn't unique to Nottingham.

Nicky Napier: Yeah. I'm just wondering about how the dance sector has changed now from your point of view, Paul. And the work that's happening at Dance Umbrella now is really exciting. And the work that I know that you do in collaboration with Battersea Arts Centre and others. You know, as I come to the end of my career, I really see that there are really great people out there who are really carrying on this kind of this torch. And also, I think, you know, artists, you know, in sort of our day, Jane, Bill and I, I think, you know, that the artists were refusing to be categorised. And now that has shifted again, is that that actually they're just not categorised. and the artists working today to present work like Yves Stainton and people like that, they're out there doing what they do and are being supported by dance or other organisations like Battersea, like Take Me Somewhere, like in Glasgow, et cetera. So I think, yeah, it's always going to be hard. I sometimes worry for dance itself, but within that, but I think, yeah, things have really shifted and continue to shift.

Paul Russ: Yeah, I think that the dance scene here, you know, there's some really inspiring people that make work here, that engage with communities here, that make things happen that don't actually need fabric, don't need nottdance, that we can collaborate with those artists and those structures in great ways. I think there is still a desire that more artists might see Nottingham as a really great place to be. And I think that's in part because Nottingham still doesn't kind of really sell itself. And I think something about that responsibility that was talked about earlier, which I really feel that we've really grasped over the last few years, is how can we draw some of the attention away from London? Because also London's saturated. It's really busy. It's really difficult to have visibility as an independent artist through some of those relationships and an organization is doing great work. Don't want to discredit that at all. But one of the things that we've really grasped is how do you use the spaces and the environments that we have? to help presenters largely and artists meet, to have really good conversation. So we bring them here now. It's like, come and see the spaces where artists are making work locally, but also from, you know, artists from across the UK. And how do we make sure that dance is in the spaces that predominantly theatre and performance and kind of have privilege in. So, you know, the Edinburgh Festival, for instance, like, okay, well, we need to kind of disrupt some of that space and make sure that Dance from England is possibly able to be on those spaces. And how do we continue to prod those people working in performance and theater to look at the practices and interdisciplinary practice that choreographers and dance artists are creating? It feels really important to make sure that those spaces exist. And actually, I feel that now some of those moments are a much more interesting space for those artists than, say, something that we used to have, which used to be called British Dance Edition, which did its job in a certain way and were great moments to bring the sector together and celebrate what's happening in dance. but actually developing much more of these intimate, smaller relationships between artist and presenter in studio sessions at Dance Umbrella or here in Nottdance. That's just done something to shift and to reveal some of the practices that are being made by artists here, rather away from the kind of traditional ways of selling a dance company through one of those big platforms.

Jane Greenfield: That's really encouraging to hear as someone who's really not engaged with the sector for many years. That's really exciting to hear.

Bill Gee: I've engaged with the sector, but because of my, you know, work in the outdoors, you know, the outdoor sector has hugely welcomed those dance companies that have wanted to make work for the outdoors. And often that is because of its non-text-based nature. And so that often means it can work really well. and it has been incredibly diverse in terms of the range of companies, you know, from deaf and disabled led companies to globally diverse led companies that have been making that journey. So, you know, I hope some of that work also gets presented in Nottingham in very public spaces because, you know, I've seen huge audiences for dance that recently, at the British Gujarati Festival in North West London, there were at least 800 people watching inclusive contemporary British Asian dance. It was great peace, but it was great fun to see that audience watching that work.

Andi Johnson: Maybe as a point towards the end of our conversation and really looking forward to the future, I'm curious maybe what we hope that dance arts and experimental arts, such as Knottdance Festival, might hold for us in the future, kind of going on from this moment. whether or not you're engaging with the act of programming that right now. But yeah, just looking forward a little bit and what you're hoping might come out of some of this experimental engagement as we continue to hopefully grow and develop projects like this one.

Bill Gee: So for me I'm just going to echo some of the past and some of the work that has taken place in the non-formal places of presentation in the city of Nottingham and I feel that I know it's hard for presenting organisations sometimes to work in those spaces because there are so many barriers to working in those spaces. It's often far easier to work in a gallery or a prescribed performance space. I genuinely believe that is a way of developing audience and a far wider range of people engaging with the practice. And I think that's been totally true to what Nottdance has been for more than 30 years.

Nicky Napier: And I'm thinking about the artists that are leaders now. I mean, artists have always led, but I'm feeling the leadership of artists, independent artists now more and more. And I hope that continues, artists as curators and also artists making their own work, artists supporting each other, artists helping each other produce work, artists stepping into access support roles, thinking about the artists that have been marginalised and those voices that are now coming through. and how they're supporting each other and how organisations are supporting artists that have been excluded from our world, from our sector. And for work to be more accessible for audiences to be thought of in the broader sense. So how the work has to have, when it can, integrated audio description and British Sign Language and has to be sensory safe spaces and all, and has to support and recognise those artists and those audiences that have not felt comfortable to come into those spaces. One of the, you know, the organisations, the festivals, everybody's thinking about it. And the artists are really leading that too. And that makes me very happy.

Jane Greenfield: I mean, again, I suppose I think of it from an artist's perspective. I know it's much more difficult for artists to make work now or to find people that will present their work necessarily. So I know it's easy for me to say this, but I think is for artists to just do the thing they want to do. And if you have an idea, stick with it. It's not even that. It's about, you know, just do the thing you want to do. Because if there are some stubborn people out there, you know, whether they're making work or presenting work or supporting work. It's often the stubborn people that keep this kind of work going because they don't necessarily conform. So I think it's just a call to artists to keep doing what they're doing and not worry whether it's dance or not. basically. Don't worry about it.

Paul Russ: Don't worry about the dance. Dance will happen anyway, in a way, as a consequence of making it happen, you know, like doing the thing that you believe in and seeing it through. I think for me there is, in all of this moment, there's something where I still feel there's a little bit of recovery happening. I don't want to really unpick anything that's about the last five or six years, but certainly It's meant that we've sometimes forgotten who our friends are, stopped saying hello to people. And so there's something for me about how something like Nottdance enables us to still meet new people and to form new connections and to create space for other people to have leadership and steward things. So that feels really important still, because it feels like that's what the festival's done for a really long time. It's enabled people to meet with extraordinary things. And sometimes people are more wise than you are. And I think it has enabled those things to happen. It's invited those voices in and those relationships. So long may that continue, I suppose.

Andi Johnson: Well, I want to wrap this up by thanking everybody for being present today and sharing this wonderful history and knowledge and experience of the Nottdance Festival and of the experiences of the city of Nottingham as a whole. This is definitely a beginning of our exploration in a lot of ways as well. I know there's so much more history that we would love to get into if there was all the time in the world. But hopefully we'll get to touch on more of that soon. So thank you for sharing the space today. Thank you. Thank you.

Becky Bailey, Fabric: If you haven't heard the first episode or any others in this series of conversations, head to your usual podcast platform and search dance moves people. Thanks for listening.